Education Ecosystems that Support the Whole Student: A Conversation with MindPrint Learning, Equal Opportunity Schools, and Curriculum Associate- Transcript

The Educating All Learners Alliance Podcast

Aurora: Hi, this is Aurora from the Educating All Learners Alliance. And today we're speaking to Doctor Greg King with Mind Print Learning, Dr. Erin Bogan at Equal Opportunity Schools, and Dr. Meg Guerrero with Curriculum Associates for a deep dive into cohesive education ecosystems that support the whole student. Mind Print Learning is dedicated towards creating systems that focus on the whole student through connecting how students learn in ways that improve educational outcomes. Check out some of their resources in our EALA resource library. Equal Opportunity Schools is an EALA partner, and they're working to strengthen educator and system leader capacity to break down barriers to increase access, belonging, and success for underserved and underrepresented students. Finally, undefined better places for teachers and students driven by the mission to create and then consistently improve innovating and exciting products that give every student the chance to succeed.

It's so great. Having the three of you with us today. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having us. So this podcast kind of started out as a conversation between me and Greg. So I'd love to hear from each of you. But let's start with Greg. What are the big areas of focus for your work right now? And where's the overlap, the synergy between these three different organizations that we all represent? So, Greg, what are you focusing on right now?

Greg: At Mind Print right now, we're focusing a lot on how we can truly build a foundation that is centered around the whole student. And I think that what we've seen in our education models and kind of data recently is that we have good achievement data, we have social-emotional outcomes data, we try to tie them together, but we're missing kind of how students learn. We're not seeing improvements, we're not seeing growth the way we think if we have all these data sets and they're so valid and so strong, why are we not producing the results for all students that we'd expect? And so we're really focusing on seeing, you know, there's an element that we're missing, that's how students learn, right? How they process information, how they memorize information, and how they actually can spit that back out at us. And if we don't have the way of bringing students on the table that is strengthening them, we're not going to see the growth that we want. You just can't expect it just to be what, you know, what, you know, what, you know, it has to be how you learn and making accessible equitable assessments that then let students say, here's what I know, here's how I learn and I can produce what I know when you attach that to how I learn and you give me the confidence to actually tell you that I know those things. And I think the three of us on this call, you know, Doctor Erin and Doctor Meg in their organizations represent that desire to see those things happen and from different perspectives, you know, Mind Print, we're really focused on that cursory. What's the foundational, how do you learn? But I think that translates into strength-based approaches that need to go into schools and into what you know, and the assessments that we develop that actually match onto academic standards and achievement.  

Aurora: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of synergy between our organizations. Erin, what are you focusing right now on in your field of work?

Erin: Sure. So yes, there's definitely a ton of overlap, which is how I connected with Greg. I would say that one of our key areas of focus and the mantra we kind of follow is this idea of mirrors, not microscopes. So holding up a mirror to the system versus a microscope to the student, and we also are really trying to understand how to make visible the whole student. And so in our work, we acknowledge that often test scores only provide a limited perspective of a student's potential. And so what we try to do is to use the science of learning and development to provide a more holistic picture of that student's ability, strength. And so in doing that, again, the focus is really to emphasize how we can change that environment so that those strengths are manifesting, particularly by creating a psychologically safe environment, knowing that psychological safety is the precursor to all learning. And then from there understand how we can begin to show students' strength to teachers, to educators in a way that allows them to build on them in holistic and aligned ways.

And so one of the things that we are trying to do now is really think about the data that is most compelling and most actionable in the scope of our work and in the scope of our insight card, which is basically a profile analysis that we show teachers based on student survey data. This data is reflected by students' test scores, but also their aspirations, their goals, the adults that they trust in the environment, their mindsets. And so in doing that, we're hoping to really shed light and make visible students, the students' strengths that were otherwise sort of shattered by again, those narrow test scores that only speak to a part of their potential to succeed in rigorous courses.  

Aurora: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that.And so Meg, what is a big area of focus for you at Curriculum Associates right now? Because we're all talking about data and assessment, and that's a space where you really, you know, you're living in.

Meg: Yeah, it's an area that is really ripe for growth and development at CA. We have a phenomenal team of folks who are working alongside teachers to provide all students a chance to succeed and to empower teachers themselves with tools and resources to accelerate student growth. And so through all of the work that we have going on, we are really ensuring that we remove barriers for kids to be able to demonstrate their understanding in ways that may look different than how we have seen in the past through assessment approaches, leveraging technology in new ways and an effort to collect richer and more purposeful data for teachers and to really have an opportunity to create partnerships with those most proximate to the problem that we are looking to support schools, teachers, students, and caretakers and co-designing with them to really work together towards a shared goal and vision to completely transform the paradigm of educational assessment and what it is we want to measure and how we want to measure it.

Aurora: And we've all been approaching this topic, but just to sort of name it explicitly, our listeners out there, our EALA listeners, we're really focused in on supporting students with disabilities and students who learn differently. So let's speak to that a little bit. Tell me a little bit more about how this work and the work that you're all doing. How does this specifically tie in to students with disabilities, students who learn differently?

Meg: You know, I grapple with this question a lot because as a former educational support specialist in special education, I have to step back and look at the bigger picture in that all students learn differently, whether we have a diagnosed disability or whether we're struggling with a certain concept or unable to access the materials that are being provided to us. We all require support at some part of our educational journey, and learning is not linear. It ebbs and flows. And so figuring out how we can support all learners and create opportunities for each of those learners to succeed in obtaining knowledge and mastery of those standards. But then not also be able to demonstrate that understanding in a way that we can, to what Mind Print does, capture it to each student's unique needs and the ways in which they can demonstrate that understanding, you know, as a teacher, it's easy for me to sit down with the kid one on one and really understand how they're making meaning of what it is they're learning and how to understand where their misconceptions are and where their successes are.

But within the world of assessment, we really put a box around those things and we streamline it. And in a lot of those ways, we get a really finite and accurate measure of what students knowing can do, but we lose some of those components of let's drill in deeper, let's cut the eraser off this pencil. And so let's really understand what it is. The student is struggling with, what it is they are showing success in, and have competence in their successes based on what they have done. And that is what I think the future of educational assessment has a real opportunity to explore together with teachers. And you know, summative assessments serve a really unique purpose. But there's so much other rich data and information that we can work alongside teachers and caretakers and students to obtain, to be able to tell that story.

Aurora: Yeah, I mean, the idea that we all learn differently, whether you're identified, diagnosed, not diagnosed, the idea that if we're making learning individualized and accessible for all then, we're all winning. So, you know, Erin, do you have a specific example? You know, like from what you're doing, I'll throw it to Erin and I'll throw it to Greg.

Erin: Not an example, but I just want to underscore that, you know, what Meg said was so spot on. And also what Dr. Greg described is really reflected in the science, and our science has not yet caught up to where we are with assessment, where we are even with, you know, curricula. And so one of the things also that I think is important to call out again is this idea of providing students with the right opportunities and making sure that students have opportunities to demonstrate their competencies and their strength in a way that is aligned to their realities and context is such an important consideration when we think about what a student is demonstrating.

And I take that back, Aurora, I think I do have an example. When I taught Sunday school, I'd have parents come up to me and say, oh my gosh, knowing that I had a background in education and I also taught, they would say, I'm so sorry, you know, before the kid did anything, you know, I'm so sorry. Little Johnny is just, he's so bad, you know, and he's not going to sit still and he's not going to, you know, and they would try to warn me and apologize ahead of time if their kid misbehaved, and it would always strike me because often the kids would be, you know, perfect, you know. Right. Right. Right. What I realized is that they were basing this off of the feedback they were getting from teachers that they were repeating and parroting what teachers had told them about little Johnny that he can't sit still, that he's not focused, but there were completely different standards and expectations in those different environments when there is a different expectation that I know you're going to sit here. I know that you're going to engage, and that message is being sent, you see a totally different set of behaviors. And so I think it's important to know that kids are demonstrating different strengths based on different contexts and those expectations that are set in those contexts. And so that's something we have to remember as we think about measures. What are we really capturing when we sit a kid down in front of a test versus put them in a context that really has meaning for their everyday life.

Greg:  I think I probably was that, I think they said little Greg instead of little Johnny, probably when you places. So I appreciate the patience that you have for all those students. But I think what we're all getting at is this concept that students deserve to be seen as the unique and brilliant humans they are. And we understand that we have to do that on some level where we can work in classrooms, schools, districts, state, you know, as a country, but each student deserves to be seen as a brilliant human that contributes so much to our education ecosystem. It doesn't allow for that individuality. It narrows a student's identity in so many ways to a score. And we need to broaden that to be, you are good enough to do these things. You are a math person, you are a reading person, you are literate, you will grow in literacy, right? And switch up our language so that and have the data for us and the information for us to actually show a student that they can do these things and that they are brilliant.

Meg:  And to work with teachers and other members and caretakers and community members to weigh in on the great successes that they're seeing this student achieve. Erin, how great would it be if you could have taken your learnings and weigh into what was actually happening in the classroom to provide a really holistic understanding of where the student is thriving. And I mean, it might just be me, but I think that is a direct link to what we want to see for college and career readiness and where the student can shine and where they can still grow and where they can best contribute and provide their unique abilities into action. I just think that we have a lot more that we can color into that picture.

Erin: Yes, absolutely.

Aurora: Now, you know, the world of education right now, there's so many issues and there's things that we're hearing about, reading about, it's hard to kind of quite know where to start to dig in. But what would you say is a big issue that you really feel like needs to be addressed in the world of education. And you know, how are you, how are you doing that with this work? I'll kick it over to you first, Erin.

Erin:  Gosh, that's such a loaded question, Aurora. But I really think that, you know, we don't have strong mechanisms to recognize student strength. And one of the challenges that I see is really around a culture of data, building a data culture so that data can be used for good. Right now, we don't know how to use test scores for good. We don't know how to measure strength well, but we don't know how to use the data that we receive from students to build on those strengths. And so again, I think it's this idea of holding up the mirror to the system. And I think as a field, we oscillate between holding up that mirror and holding up that microscope. And so finding that balance is delicate. But I think the paradigm shift begins when we really start considering what is it that we should be measuring? What is it that actually matters to measure? We all know that is not, not my phrase measuring what matters. But um, I just think that's an important concept that as a field, we're really still grappling with.

Meg: What has traditionally mattered may not be the only thing that matters. And so a lot of it is maybe measuring what we think doesn't matter. And a lot of the work that I try and really push is thinking about those traditional constructs, the academic contracts we're measuring and how we're measuring them, what technology we can leverage to get a more nuanced and richer view at student understanding. But then also there's so many non-academic components that I think we could leverage collaborative problem solving perseverance, how students are making sense of, of a problem that I, I really think can help make better meaning of those academic components. And a lot of the work that Mind Print is doing is right in line with this space.

Greg: Yeah, I thanks for that throw over Meg, perfect. But, but honestly, I think you'll hear, probably let me say this a few times, but this all relates back to the education ecosystem that we want to create, right? That, that if students are at the center and families and teachers and caretakers are at the center, then it's really changing the narratives that are, that are being told to our students. Because I think every day we talk, we watch all of these situations unfold that give our students the narrative about who they are and what they can do. And at the same time, we're faced with the reality where most jobs that can exist for these students don't are created yet. But what we're talking about and what the narratives of their building about what they can and can't do are totally bogus compared to what is going to exist for them to do when they're of age to do those things, you know. And so we have to how we think about that. We're no longer just teaching students on what you know, we're teaching students on how to learn so that they can go in and create that future that we want and that all comes back to their own narrative. I can learn. I can do these things. I am capable. Here are my abilities, here are what I, here's what I do know. Here's what I want to learn and I know how to go and get that knowledge. It's such a powerful way to shift narratives in my mind. And that's really the, the goal and, and I will add shifting family narratives about their kids, teachers, narratives about their students all plays into that as well.

Aurora: That's what I was thinking. Yeah, if you're a teacher, you don't know what your students capable of until you have data or information that challenges your assumption of that student. I mean, we all see our kiddos in different contexts, in different different ways. And we all have different versions of ourselves in a way, you know, we all kind of interact in different environments differently and so we learn differently. We need different things.

Greg: I always help you up. I thought I was terrible at math my entire life until I was 21 years old and I went, decided to start going to college, took a statistics class and the statistics teacher came up to me and said, you are awesome at this. You can tell stories with data that no one else is, is even thinking about. And you're asking these really logical data questions. And I was like, I'm not good at math and she was like, no, you've been lied through your entire life, study this stuff. You're good at this. And then I went and majored in English and eventually ended up falling into an assessment. So.

Aurora: I mean, I think a lot of adults are discovering that kind of in this, in this newer age of mental health awareness, neurodivergent awareness where folks are saying, wow, you know, I grew up thinking that there was something quote unquote wrong with me, but it turns out, you know, I have a learning difference or I have ADHD or I have this, like people are learning this now about themselves and they're realizing that there was nothing wrong with them. They were just being, you know, told a narrative about themselves. And, you know, it's great that, you know, folks can kind of really explore, explore this now. So where do we go from here? What's next? We've talked a lot about, you know, where we started, what we want, what the challenges are, how do we get there? What do we do to create a more equitable education system? I'll pass it over to you Meg.

Meg: You know, I think all of the great things that we're saying today and we're talking about and thinking about and to your point or about how adults are learning the ways in which we process and make meaning. I took the Mind Print assessment. It validated a lot of assumptions I had about my understanding and how I make sense of things I should do that. I think being able to provide that to kids and to be able to do that with fidelity and to work together across different sectors to leverage that. I mean, there's a lot that we can learn from the neuroscience literature about how students make sense of things. So I think that is, that is a big part of that is to actually do this really difficult work and have really difficult conversations and, you know, continue to challenge those traditional approaches that we are so used to and to really think outside the box of what we measure and how we measure it, leverage technology differently and in new ways and partner with kids and teachers and caretakers to help us better do this work. To design, co-sign together with teachers and to really leverage design principles that align to instruction, research standards that have high expectations that are inclusive and provide teachers tools for success.

Aurora: And pass it over to Erin next.  

Erin:  Yeah. No, I absolutely agree. And you know, I would say again, we are so far behind in terms of aligning the science with the way that we educate our kids and the research on neuroplasticity, for example, teaches us so much about resilience about student strength. And what we really need is a better and deeper translation of that into the mechanisms that we use to reach our students. Because in doing that, we are essentially taking a real whole child approach. Despite, you know, understanding that concept of needing to educate the whole child, we still take pieces of our kids. And this approach is harmful. And I think the science also shows us the way that it's harmful. Our brain processes threats, physical threats, the same way it does social threats. So when we put our kids in environments where they are not psychologically safe, where they're not getting the kinds of messages that Dr. Greg was mentioning, we are essentially throwing them out into the wild and telling them to survive that we're putting them in fight or flight. We are compressing their ability to and constrain their ability to use their prefrontal cortex to actually think through and problem solve and engage in those executive functions that are so core to them being successful in the classroom. And in addition to doing this, we're missing important information about their context. We don't talk to parents enough about the ways that students succeed and demonstrate strength in their home context. And so I think starting with the science, but also really understanding the importance of the information that we get from parents around that student's cultural and contextual realities is key. And we're also I think really behind because of some of the issues I mentioned before around, you know, schools often struggling to build that data culture. We're really behind in supporting our teachers with data literacy and data can be such a powerful tool for our advocacy when we make it actionable. However, it's still often weaponized in our schools as opposed to used to build our students. And so shifting that culture is something that also has to happen in order for us to really realize this vision of more equitable schooling.

Greg:  Doctor Erin, I think you hit on something that made me think about when we were preparing for this, we talked about how there is, you know, we moved away from some corporal punishment or if you get the answer wrong, we're not hitting you on your hands with the ruler. We shouldn't be anymore, but we haven't moved away from that practice in terms of how we use information data, we still punish kids for how they perform and we're very performance based. The answer is right or wrong. It's we're forgetting the context. We're still taking that ruler and hitting to Doctor Erin's point, right? The psychological safety is just as important as physical safety and we're still taking that ruler and hitting kids with it because they didn't perform the way we thought they would on tests that maybe weren't designed for them or take into their cultural context or their, their community aspects. So, and, and an environment. So I think that the more that we can get to places where we're understanding our ecosystems and communities and scalable contextual information, the better we can design a system that works for our kids. That is contextual to the communities that we're in, right? We don't need to, it's not gonna be one size fit all. We talk about individuality at the student level. We need it at the community level as well. And, and we need to understand how we can work with co-design to Doctor Meg's Point with people to re-envision and create a movement around what our education system can be. We have the information for it. We just need to figure out how to connect those pieces in better, more equitable ways too.

Meg:  And to just add to that, kids are brilliant. They have so much brilliance and they are capable of so much more than we give them credit for, especially when we limit that credit to specific components of measurement. And in addition to that, teachers are experts in their field, we should be leaning on them, building with them. They are going to champion the work alongside us and they are the direct link to kids to help build that self-efficacy and that confidence and that safety in that classroom community. And so we cannot do this alone. We have to do it with our schools.

Aurora: I love that. As we're coming up on the end of our time here, almost final words, Greg, I'll kick it over to you as this started out as kind of a mind print convening. So yeah, final words, wrap us up.

Greg: I think Doctor Meg said it so well that, you know, really, we need to partner with our communities with, with teachers and with students and families and caretakers in our community to co-sign and take co-ownership of the work that needs to be done in strength-based ways that, that are dedicated to the whole student, not just focus on specific components, but the whole person that we're trying to work with. And that involves all of us, students network, right? It involves me learning involves us, the teachers learning involves all of us doing that work and not being perfect in, in recognizing that we don't need to be perfect. We just need to show up and, and be willing to work together on, on, on rebuilding that. So that's kind of I think what we're all talking about is that ecosystem in the vacuum of we need to, we need to work together with all of our stakeholders and and and come back to the table to really do those that, that important work and focus on the strengths. Hopefully you edit that down to one concise sentence.

Meg: I was just going to say if we wait for perfection, we are never going to do anything. So there you go, going to Greg to your point. Go in and try and it's OK if you don't get it right. The first time you're just, you'll make it better the next,

Aurora:  That's been a bit of a meta-analysis of, of our process today with let's just chat, throw some spaghetti at the wall and see what we get. You folks have been. It's been wonderful to have your uh your insight, your expertise, your time and energy to share with the EALA audiences today. So before we go, how can folks get involved, stay informed, stay up to date with what's going on going on with you Meg. We'll start with you.

Meg: Yeah, find me on LinkedIn or you can check out the Curriculum Associates website at CurriculumAssociates.com. We would love to hear your voice and partner with you and work together to move this, this amazing work forward.

Aurora: right? Doctor Erin, what you got, how can we stay up to date with what you're doing?

Erin: So, also LinkedIn is a great way to connect. I love to connect with folks over this work and you can also learn more particularly around a new paper that just came out today on psychological safety that I wrote on the EOS website, which is EOschools.org. So we would love to connect with you.

Aurora: Right. Greg?

Greg: You can find Mind Print Learning and myself on LinkedIn and check out our website at MindPrintLearning.com.

Aurora: Thank you, everybody. It was really great having you on the podcast today. Thank you for your time.That's it for us today, folks. Thank you to Dr. Greg King, Dr. Erin Bogan and Dr. Meg Guerrero And to learn more, check out their websites at mindlearning.com, EOschools.org and curriculumassociates.com. I'm Aurora from EALA and this was a Deep Dive with MindPrint Learning EO Schools and Curriculum Associates.